Recent publications from major gaming and games-related news outlets have sought to highlight the contributions of many game developers and expand recognition. However, in a disappointing–though perhaps not altogether shocking–display of outdated values and priorities, these same publications have in several cases neglected to mention a single female-identifying person in their lists of recognition. This article is seizing the opportunity to interview two lesser-known, but still very impressive and successful, women working in games and discuss their perspective on the apparent gender disparities still lurking in the industry. They are Eva Tucker, game producer and beloved LinkedIn influencer, and Andrea Saravia Pérez, an award-winning narrative designer and advocate for diversity in games.
Why did you pursue a career in games?
Eva: This was something I wanted to do from a young age. I had an interest in the industry since I was little–my father introduced it to me through the Super Nintendo. I loved playing games, and wanted to seek a career in game art. Over time, I realized what I liked about art was that it was more of a hobby for me; I didn’t want to be pressured into designing things for other people. This led me to get my degree in Game Design, and I came out of that with a better understanding of how games are made, which that led me to want to be a producer and be in charge of projects, manage tasks and timelines, and that felt like it was better to me because I’m an organized and detailed person that works well under pressure.
Andrea: That’s a great question. Initially, I didn’t even know a career in games was an option, and I was instead pursuing graphic novels and publishing, because this was an example of an industry that was far more normalized. People didn’t understand what creative writing was; to this day, if you ask my family members what I do as a career, they wouldn’t be able to tell you, and I’m not making that up. I wanted there to be a mix of the arts and storytelling in my work, which is why I went for graphic novels, but one day I realized: I grew up with League of Legends, that’s one of my red flags. Unlike many of my peers, I would spend hours reading the Bilgewater lore and background of the champions–all 200 of them–and it hit me. Somebody had to write all this! And when I took a game writing class in college, it was all downhill from there.
What are some of your favorite games to play?
Eva: Roleplaying games in particular. I like playing Persona, particularly Persona 5, which got me interested in their IP. Other games would be like Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and street beat-’em-up games like Yakuza, and arena-based fighters like Custom Robo. That feeling that led me back to when I was young playing Custom Robo, that was a good feeling.
Kaitlyn: Speaking of RPG games, have you played Divinity: Original Sin?
Eva: Yes, several years ago, I got into the second game, which is my favorite because they did a lot of quality-of-life improvements to their engine.
What is your favorite project you have worked on?
Eva: Oh, that’s far back, like 2014. I was with a startup indie studio working on an RPG game built for console. It was ambitious, and there was a lot at stake. It was fun, because it was everyone on the team’s first time making a game, but it also revealed the darker side of the industry for me in terms of projects getting canned, even with so much progress being made on them. So I got to experience that early on, and realize the stressors that impact a project and the negatives that can come out of it, because so much is invested in the games industry that there is a lot at stake. You know, 4% of the games that are put into production actually ever come out profitable.
What have been some of the greatest obstacles you have encountered as a female game developer? This can be related to any area of your career, the hiring process, the game development process, and so on.
Eva: Greatest barrier is that people don’t respect you. If you’re not white or male, you don’t get respect from others, and I never really understood why when you could easily be superior in terms of knowledge. The other huge barrier is hiring; it always seems like women are less likely to be employed by companies, and it’s something I still can’t figure out, especially these days when that trend feels so outdated. I wasn’t always in the games industry; I did project management, I ran entertainment complexes, and you see this same phenomenon everywhere. It’s upsetting, because it seems like companies don’t want to progress and would rather stick to their old ways. I don’t know how society can advance with that kind of mindset. Companies will say that they do equal employment opportunity, which they do to some degree to avoid liability, but there’s still the hiring bias.
Andrea: For me, as someone whose family comes from Colombia, a major barrier I faced in workplaces were linguistic and cultural ones. If English isn’t your first language and you’re not used to it, there will be idioms or phrases that do not make sense. You also have people talking over you and don’t feel comfortable speaking. No matter how kind people are, if you’re surrounded by predominately older men, you can hear from corporate as many times as you want that your opinion and contributions matter, but innately you’re not used to it, so it takes a long time for you to establish some form of assertiveness and social leadership. By the time you finally do get used to it and you’re comfortable speaking regardless of your gender or where you’re from, you might be laid off, which is what happened [to many people].
Are women underrepresented or under-appreciated in the games industry?
Eva: Yes. In fact, women and minorities are underrepresented in the industry quite a lot, and this goes for virtually any industry–it’s usually white male-led, wherever you go. Right now, the games industry is trying to foster a lot more representation, so you see organizations like Women in Games, Women in Games International, Women in Tech; all these organizations that are pushing to increase representation for women, but also pushing for racial and other minorities to see more representation as well. This is specifically in response to the fact that underrepresentation is still a prevalent issue in the industry.
When I presented statistics about the demographic situation in the industry several months ago, it did show that there was an increase in representation overall, but at the same time, there were still significant levels of harassment faced by minorities in studios and in public events like conventions. The level of work people put into this industry, things like pay disparities and glass ceilings shouldn’t exist.
Kaitlyn: A lot of the people affected by the layoffs recently seem to come from the diversity and inclusion departments created by studios in recent years to combat the poor optics from scandals like Gamergate, so folks have been speculating that these mass layoffs are not just indicative of poor business practices, but also specifically targeting the people whose jobs it is to foster representation and inclusion, representing a sort of “step backward” in the industry overall. Do you agree with that assessment?
Eva: I personally think the layoffs are something of a cover-up. A lot of the companies laying employees off are, in reality, profitable. Data keeps emerging that throws the reasoning behind these layoffs into question; it seems like there’s little to no reason for them. What’s happening right now after the pandemic is that a lot of companies are mandating return to office, which is affecting everyone, but especially people with circumstances that preclude them from easily coming into the office, often disabilities. So, rather than outwardly targeting people with these disabilities, companies are claiming that these layoffs are due to ‘financial instability’ or ‘restructuring’, because legally they can. There are a lot of women and disabled people out of a job as a result of these layoffs, and primarily I think it represents companies trying to eliminate remote work as well as diversity.
In regards to the “step backward” comment, I do agree with it, because there is no progression toward helping people that have already been hired by the companies; it’s more about saving a buck.
Andrea: I know the situation you’re describing all too well. I was leader of the Latinos ERG for Uni2k, and one of my friends was the lead for Together with 2k, which is their LGBT+ ERG. We were laid off the same day. You spend so much time coordinating not just with people from your studio, but also the parent companies, setting up schedules, coordinating events, but in the end it might amount to very little. ERGs are just not easy. My friend had a wonderful example where they shipped out this book to coworkers that was banned about trans youth, and they had this content they could read together and talk about, like a book club, but it’s hard to establish a sense of camaraderie and community when the only thing you have in common between each other is being members of this group. Sending out merch really isn’t enough. My friend and I were working very hard to solve that, especially because we had hybrid modality and were juggling people working from different situations. I was a member of two different ERGs at the time, trying to lead both. I spent a lot of time proposing schedules and generating material for them. But going through Hispanic Heritage Month and seeing that none of my ideas were used, it was not exactly a fun time. At this rate, I think we might lose our ERGs.
What is something about the games industry that really frustrates you?
Eva: What really frustrates me are AAA studios in particular. They’re very hard-set on the IPs they’ve already created, and don’t allow for a whole lot of creativity. This is why a lot of people are leaving AAA studios to found their own; the flexibility is more, but the risks are higher. A lot of AAA studios are facing backlash from the community for copy and pasting a game that already exists just because it makes money. There comes a point in time when concepts are so reused that it doesn’t really make you feel unique to your competitors, and reflects an unwillingness to change.
What advice do you have for women looking to kickstart or advance their career in games?
Eva: The advice I would give out is basically universal: to not give up. The industry is extremely hard to get into, especially now. Always go in with the mindset to learn. You will never know everything, and you will benefit from being surrounded by people who know more than you. You can ask questions, and you can absorb new knowledge. There are great LinkedIn learning resources, as well as ones on Udemy. You need to build yourself up and build up your brand; if you can’t showcase your work, your brand won’t be a good fit for the company, and that’s unfortunately how they see it.
Everyone assumes they’re going to be able to get a role in the industry, but the truth is the industry is oversaturated. What I ask people is, is this something you really want to do with the rest of your life? Because if so, you’re going to be spending a long time looking for a job you may not ever get. You’re probably going to be spending a lot of time waiting in between applications, so you’ll probably need to find another job not in games in the meantime.
Andrea: Speaking from the point of view of someone working in narrative design, which I’m sure you know is extremely competitive, even more so than other sectors of the industry, I always make it a point to explain to people the status of the job market. I have seen applications for narrative design with over 3,000 applicants, sometimes with only one person looking through all of them. I’ve seen people with previous experience in lead narrative or executive positions accept associate-level narrative positions in recent times. This is not on the applicants, but on the company that is hiring. People spend extra thousands of dollars on courses to give themselves a chance, not a guarantee. I want people to know the facts and figures before they commit to it. That said, there are things you can do to increase your chances. There are mentorship programs which you should go to and connect with; but please, don’t get a mentor just to score a job. Even though the mentor is providing a resource and you may be connecting with the intention of advancing your career in narrative design, connecting with people on a level outside of the professional is infinitely valuable. Think of it as watering a plant. Check on your connections and keep fostering them. Referrals can be incredibly valuable in potential future job opportunities, especially with AAA companies, and you’ll have a much stronger candidate to campaign for you and represent you if you’ve taken the time to create a personal relationship with them.
You need to cultivate that brand, like Eva said, which feels so weird to say–maybe a better way to reframe it is to cultivate your niche. That way, if people need specific roles filled or tasks completed, they know exactly who to reach out to in their network with that specific knowledge. You need to be that person they reach out to!
Who are some of the most inspiring (or just your favorite) female game developers that deserve more recognition?
Eva: Asia Hawkins. She’s a lead weapons artist for Gearbox Entertainment. She just recently got on Favicon too. She’s a great influence.
Andrea: I know there’s Alina Matson, who’s the CEO of Glossbird, she’s super transparent about the journey of start-ups, getting funding, and so on. We also have Chantal Ryan, who is another CEO, and Arin Goldsmith who is a senior talent manager at Blizzard. She provides a lot of great resources and content on moving over from a non-games related career path. Susan O’Connor has served over 20 years in the industry. Cami Smith is a great recruiter I recommend everyone reach out to, an amazing person that does so much behind the scenes. Cristina Amaya helped a lot of Latine game developers get into the industry.
What do you think of the recent male-centric reporting on game developers in major game news outlets?
Andrea: I have to say, I do appreciate the positive side to these incidents, where as a result of reporting like that at PC Gamer, people go out of their way to highlight and share female game developers that are very talented and experienced and have contributed a lot to the industry, as well as the emergence of male allies who spoke up to show their support for the women in their ranks. But I was disappointed in PC Gamer because of the size of the outlet, and as a game journalist I thought they did not do their due research, which is most of your task as a journalist. I have never witnessed such an irresponsible publication to that extent. Professionally, that’s about as much as I can say about it.
Eva: I agree with that sentiment. There are a lot of really good people in the industry that aren’t getting the limelight, and are also not getting highlighted for their works. This really comes down to publications being set in their ways and not doing their research.
